Speaker 1: 0:04

Hey everyone and welcome to Startup Chronicles. Today I'm super excited to have Andy McNulty with us. He is the CEO and a big brain behind Touch Stay, this awesome digital guidebook that's changing the game for rental owners and their guests. We are diving into their whole adventure how they started the bombs along the way and how they won over thousands of happy customers. We'll chat about generating ideas, taking chances, learning as you go and the nitty gritty of running a tech biz when you are not exactly a tech biz. Fun fact, andy and I go back. I've been lucky enough to hook Touch Stay up with some amazing software engineers through our company, echoglobaltech, which is a sponsor of this podcast. Stick around, this is gonna be good.

Speaker 2: 0:46

One of them literally said I think that's the worst idea. I've got a PDF, I don't need anything else. Oh, okay, but I knew that it wasn't a bad idea. Business and startup world is full of potential distraction. Yeah, you know there's lots of oh squirrel, let's go and look over there. You know there's plenty of opportunity to do that.

Speaker 2: 1:08

It's a curiosity that I think every startup business needs to hold really close. You have to be curious and you have to think a little bit more creatively, and I'm also somebody who will always tell people hey, if you're not happy in what you're doing, quit complaining, go and try and do something about it. And then, guess what happened? We got invited onto the Virgin startup accelerator, so Richard Branson's Virgin. They were offering startups to come and join their accelerator program, and we applied and we got accepted and started.

Speaker 2: 1:38

The most basic decision we had to take was do we build a native app or do we build a web app? Spend a little bit more time on developing the network, building the network, and then, once you've got that network, it really pays then, because you are those just couple of degrees of separation away from people that really know the answer, without some knowledge of how you're going to price it, without some knowledge of how you're going to position it, without all these other things. You're right you are walking into failure if you just blindly go because it's going to work.

Speaker 1: 2:11

Welcome to Startup Chronicles Podcast. If you're building, or planning to build your own tech company, this is the place where you get inspired, educated and prepared, prepared for all those pitfalls that are on your way, which you will definitely overcome, because every guest who's on this podcast is a big time practitioner who's been there and done that. They come here to share the unique stories of their ups and downs, providing you with available tips and guidance, so maybe you will be the one to build the next unique current company. I'm Max, the host of the podcast and a co-founder of a tech recruitment company. I'm not sitting on a bunch of startup secrets, but I'm also working on a few personal projects too. That's the main reason why I brought this podcast to life to learn from the best, alongside with you. So enjoy the show and let's dive into our next Chronicle. Andy hi, it took us some time to schedule this podcast and now, finally, it is happening. I'm super excited to have you here. How are you?

Speaker 2: 3:00

I'm very well. Thank you and sorry if I was a part of that difficulty in scheduling because my diary was so busy. I think you said to me can you join the podcast? About 16 months ago yeah, I think I can, maybe soon.

Speaker 1: 3:13

I totally understand that. So, Andy, normally I would let the guest introduce his company, but since TouchStay is not the company that I found out about yesterday and we know each other for quite a while now, if you don't mind, I will introduce TouchStay to our listeners, and if I get something wrong or miss something and I probably will, so I apologize in advance. Feel free to criticize that. Stop me and jump in, okay.

Speaker 2: 3:40

I'll never criticize, but I might just casually correct you.

Speaker 1: 3:43

Yeah, go for it Great, okay, so TouchStay is a digital guidebook. And what is a digital guidebook? Let's imagine that you just arrived at your Airbnb or vacation rental and then the next morning you're ready to explore, but then you are hit with a barrage of questions how does the coffee maker work? What's the Wi-Fi password? Where is the nearest restaurant or a grocery store? And that's where TouchStay comes to the rescue, because, basically, the host as far as I understand I might be wrong again, but in my understanding, the host would send you the link to the so-called lending page, which is packed with all of the info you would need for your stay and how I understand the product. It's not only making the life easier for the guest, but also for the host, because it helps him to provide a top-notch hospitality without having to answer the same questions a million of times. So, yeah, andy, what do you think?

Speaker 2: 4:46

Perfect, top of the class. Maybe the only final part is it's not an app. We have to get to the app store and download stuff, or the Play Store and download stuff or sign in to anything. It doesn't need any of that. It's just like a web link. It does something clever. Once you load the web link on your phone, there's a little prompt that allows you to add it to your home screen and then it becomes like an app on the phone, just like your X app or your Facebook app. So first time I called it X. Usually I call it Twitter. I'm adjusting.

Speaker 1: 5:21

Well, as you said, that's what I thought it was more like, as I said, a lending page. It's not an app. You don't have to download anything on your device. Yeah, that's pretty cool. So let's imagine I am your potential customer and I ask you this question why would I use your service or your tool if I could just use some commonly known website builders or even notion? It's a free tool, it's pretty customizable why would I go for TouchStays? Yeah, sorry, touchstays builder.

Speaker 2: 5:58

Yeah, it's a good question. We have a lot of people that will ask us why didn't? I could just use my website, right? I mean, the reality is the website's there for people who want to book or for people who want to get to know, like what you're about.

Speaker 2: 6:13

But after you've booked your stay, or maybe you've reserved a camper van that uses our product, and once you've booked your stay, the website is not the place where you put all of that detailed information. Usually that's like a Word doc or a Google Drive or a PDF or something like this, because it's quite rich information, way too much than you would want on a website. So that's where it goes. The other thing is, on a website they don't all allow you to just seamlessly integrate with Google Places. And what's the advantage of that? Well, the host can just type in the restaurant name, press add and then it retrieves the information from Google Places, put a nice pin on the map which you can choose the style of pin. There's all these kind of little micro things to just make it a little bit more fun to use and they're just a little bit more versatile than a website can be. So that's the main reason, that's the main difference.

Speaker 1: 7:11

Okay, great. So I also heard from Joe. It's another co-founder of TouchStay. He says this is information for our listeners. He told me that people started using TouchStay's builder. Can I say TouchStay's builder? How should I?

Speaker 2: 7:31

Yeah, builder is a good way of describing it. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 7:34

Okay. So they started using TouchStay's builder to build things that you didn't even have, you didn't initially even think about, like some instructions of you know for how to fix the elevator or how to plan the vacation and stuff like that. I mean, of course that is true, but how often that is happening and what are you going to do with that? Are you going to try to maybe build some additional features for those segment of your customers?

Speaker 2: 8:08

Yes, we are, and the product is used by an Airbnb host today. It's used by more people than that, but let's think of it as an Airbnb host. What does an Airbnb host need? It needs to open up the builder and just start putting all the information that their guests usually ask them. So forget now Airbnb host. Think about A&O, that anybody in any industry, anywhere who has a lot of questions that get asked the same questions over and over again. Now you open up a guidebook. You create a guidebook that answers those questions. So it could be the school principal who wants to send all of the parents a prospectus so that their kids who are coming to that school know what the curriculum is, what their philosophy is like, what activities they have. We have people doing a TouchStay guide for their school. Think about onboarding your employee. A new employee comes into the business.

Speaker 2: 9:04

There's so many things that they need to know about that company. Just put it all in a guide. You mentioned the lift one. The lift one's funny. So we had an Australian customer who installs commercial elevators in big office buildings and they have about eight different commercial elevators, different specifications. They create a TouchStay guide for each of their eight elevators and they hand the TouchStay guide to the building operator when they install the lift. So it's like a manual for your car. That's what they give you. Here's how to use the lift, here's what's difficult, here's who to call, here's the spec and all this kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 9:44

We are taking that. We didn't intend that, joe's right. These are people that just found our website and decided, oh, I wonder if I could do this. And they tried it and they did it, and then, of course, we were thrilled. Why would we not want that to happen? So, to answer your question, this year we are building out some other use cases that we will, in fact now include on the website more overtly and we will mark it to those segments. So the two we're going to go for is the employee market, so the employee onboarding and the employee manual and the employee training, and then also what we're calling standard operating procedures. Every business has standard operating procedures, which are usually kept in a word, doc or PDF or something like that. Now you can use Touchday to create your SOP. So those are the two kind of ones that we're going to start going after.

Speaker 1: 10:34

Well, that makes me wonder, because that probably make you reconsider your marketing approach, because the way you put this product in front of rental owners probably would be a different compared to you know people who want to make some instructions, or onboard people. Have you thought about that? Are you going to change the marketing approach or not?

Speaker 2: 10:59

Yes, subtly, but we don't have to do anything too complicated because the product is the key and the product can serve any of those use cases that we spoke about. There's nothing in the product that needs to change. It's ready to go. The question is what do we do when someone lands on Touchdaycom and they're an Airbnb host? We don't want them to land there and to be scared and to suddenly think wait, I'm in the wrong place, this is not for me. But also we need the person who wants to install the lifts in a building and who wants a manual for their elevator to come and to also understand that this isn't for Airbnb host and it's also for me.

Speaker 2: 11:40

And really, if you look at the way we position our product and the way we talk about our product, there's very little language that's unique to any particular type of person. It's much more around. You save time answering questions. You can build a guide that exists on Word or PDF. Really simply, you can add as many photos as you want. You can add as much text as you want. You can build your own headings. You can use a map if you want. You can put links.

Speaker 2: 12:06

There's so many things that are universal that we don't need to change, to be honest, that much. So it's much more about how we attack the marketing. So right now, all of our marketing effort and our focus goes into what we call the short-term rental landscape, which is the Airbnb host landscape, and now we're talking about what we need to take some of that money and put it into another industry vertical and it's a complicated subject and we don't have time to discuss it now. But you're right, it's a part of what we're thinking and it's definitely a part of the brain that's shifting a little bit to say what else we can do with this product and there's a lot of opportunity and it's really fun as well. People just like creating guides to all sorts of things and if we can hold on to that concept, we don't need to overthink too much the marketing.

Speaker 1: 12:58

Yeah. So can we sum this up by saying that it's just a little bit different positioning approach, right, because TouchStay is known in the travel industry. When I hear TouchStay I think about traveling, rental properties, vacation. But what you have to do, different is probably position for a different kind of customers. Just short yes or no would work exactly.

Speaker 2: 13:26

It is a different position. I mean, the answer yes or no is very simplistic, but you're right that that's the challenge. It's like yeah, you know, what I say max is is Business and startup world is full of potential distraction. Yeah, you know there's lots of oh squirrel. Let's go look over there. You know there's. There's plenty of opportunity to do that.

Speaker 2: 13:49

And the way I look at this, in the way we've spoken about it as a team, the, the benefit, the uniqueness we have here is we don't need to be distracted with the product. Okay, we don't need to start developing all these other features. We, we don't need to think about how we present the product to somebody. That that's the easy bit, right, and that is often the hardest bit, isn't it to take your product and try and shift it to make it work for another Audience? We don't have to do that, it works. So now we just talk about where we want to focus our marketing dollars and so far We've built a really good reputation in the, the Airbnb world.

Speaker 2: 14:25

That that I don't want to set to machine. But there's, there's a, there's a nice gentle kind of you know, regular stream of business that comes Organically direct. You know, we can talk about that. That's very complicated too, yeah. So yes, that's the way I look at it. It's like we will have distractions, but I think if you can really understand, then you can. Just that's the learning, isn't it? It's like what how do you simplify what you do so that an idea can come to fury fruition without completely ruining your business by taking it off in some other path? I Gave you more than yes or no, sorry.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Yeah, but that's, that's good to hear. So. But also we can say that distraction is not always a bad thing, right? Because sometimes it could be blessing in disguise If you, if you were not distracted, maybe, maybe that's a very good, you know, pivoting opportunity or just another Great potential feature opportunity that you would discover when you are distracted.

Speaker 2: 15:23

I Totally agree. It's a curiosity that I think every startup business needs to hold really close. You have to be curious and you have to think a little bit more creatively and and and. In doing that, there comes the risk of the distraction, and that's where you have to be really self-aware, you know, and you have to, you have to just and it's it's hard to think, like you know, it's hard to think about how you approach that challenge, but the, the, the creativity, should always be there. The creativity generates ideas as well. And the challenges then to make ideas happen, like you can All two.

Speaker 2: 15:58

We used to be really bad. We used to talk about ideas every five minutes and then we just have like a hundred ideas. Then we'd be like, wow, that was so energizing. Okay, but but what, what like what? So what, what's next? So we're not like that anymore. We do still have ideation, but what we really want to do is think about when we come up with an idea, so what, why? What are we gonna do about it? How are we gonna do it? You know, that's the key.

Speaker 1: 16:20

Yeah. So talking of ideas, that really leads me to my next question. I have to tell you something, andy. I remember vividly the first time I was introduced to you guys. I checked your website and I was impressed by how it was such a simple, yet creative and promising idea for a startup. But at the same time I had kind of like Mixed feelings because at the first glance it seemed like it was too simple to be a valid startup idea. You know what I mean. As I said before, first thing that comes to my mind, there are some other alternatives. You already explained that we don't have to go there, but still, I just want to go back to that time when the idea for touch stay was born. Tell me a little bit more about it.

Speaker 2: 16:59

Who, where and why hmm, I always Stayed in what we call vacation rentals holiday every me, it's what we call an Airbnb.

Speaker 1: 17:09

now, I always stayed in those.

Speaker 2: 17:11

My parents used to take me to them all the time, and so then, when I started having kids, you know you don't want to pay a small hotel room, you want a bit more space, and you then sometimes it's cheaper not so much anymore, is probably more close to a hotel, but so so I started taking my kids To stay in vacation rentals, and then I realized every time I went that that I didn't know anything about the area, and so I would call up the host and I'd be like I'm bringing my kids, we want to know where to get the best pizza. And then, like, just like this, the host says, oh, you've got to try this place, it's the best place on the island. Okay, so then next time my kids are really looking for ice cream, but I don't want to take them to. Like the, the, the traditional high street brand I want to take them to. Is that a really good ice cream? Oh, yeah, yeah, you have to take them here. And so gradually, all these things kept happening and and then you go into the home and then, and then you pick up, you pick up in the home and you pick up this thing, like this binder, and you turn and like, yeah, there's, page three is dropping out and page six has a coffee stain on it and it's like sick. You know, the recommendations are three years out of date, so it was a real shame. So we just decided there has to be a better way digital version.

Speaker 2: 18:25

And to your point about simplicity, excuse me, I had so many of my, my friends who I tell them about this, they, they would, they would be like that's terrible idea, that's just such a bad idea. And I remember asking a couple of friends who've got holiday homes and One of them literally said I think it's the worst idea. I've got a PDF, I don't need anything else. Okay, but I knew that it wasn't a bad idea, I knew it was a good idea. And it's not only about, oh, I've got a PDF, but it's okay. So, how, how easy it is to update that PDF. Do you print that PDF? Yeah, I printed. Oh, okay, what happens to page three when you need to change it? I, I have to print out page three and then I have to drive to my, to my villa, and then take out the binder and unclip it and put that, you know. So it's not. It's not like.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Simplicity is is also about Making it easy for someone. So simplicity often is seen as a oh, that's negative, because that's such a simple product. But simplicity is what we all want and I'm glad you said simple at the start. I used to apologize in the early days for having a simple product and now it's our massive strength. You know, people are so busy. We're like juggling many balls, spinning plates, busy lives but we have so many technology products available, don't we? It's just bewildering how many technology products they are, how many of them are really easy to use straight away. And and that's the difference here this is not. This is not a tool where it requires you to do you know so many complex processes, or plug in this or publish this or no code, or it's just not. It's like if you can use a word doc, you can use touch thing.

Speaker 1: 20:10

Okay. So that is a really interesting story. But still, you got an idea, then you introduced it to, you pitch that idea to your friends. Then they said that's a terrible idea. You explain them why it is not a terrible idea. Because you cannot, you know, update PDF or print it. Why did you feel so confident that it, the opportunity, is worth the opportunity cost? Because I I assume I might be wrong, but at that time you did not have any Competitors, right, and that could be a pretty good red flag. If you don't have competition, what that means. That means that there is no demand for this right, potentially. So how did you approach the idea validation? How? What was the triggers or the main indicators for you that? Yeah, I want to try that because I know that you had full-time job we will talk about that a little bit later but tell me, how did you really validate that idea that you had green light to go full-time?

Speaker 2: 21:07

hmm, that that let's talk about that job in a little bit. That that's interesting Because that's a really important part of our story which is different from what a lot of people have. We had this idea and people said it was terrible, but that didn't matter, because it didn't stop us developing it. Why? Because we had the security of full-time, paid employment in good jobs somewhere else and it became a hobby really for a while. So eventually, to your question, like, what made you what? What made you then decide, okay, now I can launch it and how, how do I launch it? And and why do you ignore the person that says? It's simple because Really, we started that four years after we founded the business.

Speaker 2: 21:46

For four years we were just working and earning nice money and we didn't want to jump into this, this idea. We let this thing just bubble away and I think we probably had one or two hundred customers in that time and it was really useful, very useful, because those customers can tell us you know things about the product, the use case and and the feature set and the ease of use of the product, and that really helped because when we came to launch it, we, we, we knew a little bit more about our customer. We knew a little bit more about what they want and we had that luxury to wait those many years to gain that learning. But also in those many years then people started to realize that if they wanted to professionalize their operations so running an Airbnb used to be like a side gig. Now people are doing it for real. It's a business they really want to make it, you know, very, very good for the guest. You know those days where you used to turn up to a holiday villa and and there would be no sharp knife or you know the the cups would be broken or whatever. That doesn't. That still happen sometimes, but in the good places that doesn't happen anymore. So the level of professionalism has gone up and that meant that people place a greater value on what their guests receive in terms of service. And that's really where we saw the opportunity in like 2018, 2019, to really launch into it and we took a little bit of seed capital tiny amount from our customers which allows to do some marketing, allowed us to employ one another person, mm-hmm and and to build on this.

Speaker 2: 23:15

This kind of shift we could see happening in terms of professionalism and for us you know I'm not going to lie. Of course, there was a lot of luck involved too, and and some of the luck I don't want to call it luck. It's tricky because COVID happened and it was terrible for so many people and it was for us. For many months. We had no business, but we were healthy and we were able, because we had resiliency with cash, to be able to sustain the development team that worked with us, for example. But when that, when COVID happened and people started opening up their airbnbs again and they were allowed to host guests, guess what they all wanted? A digital product to be able to communicate with their guests in a more remote way. And so that element of fortune in a way for us that we had a product positioned at the right time Did, did help us to grow. So I don't know if that answered your question, but that was like a quick leap between founding the business and, you know, the last few years.

Speaker 1: 24:17

Okay, so Before touch stay you worked at if I'm not mistaking I checked your LinkedIn profile you worked as a chief financial officer at Gucci and then Victoria back him. That sounds like a pretty stable Job. That would make you to Consider very, very well whether you really want to quit the job and Do what what you are doing, full-time. So, because that was probably your safety net also that helped, you know, to get some traction with touch stay, as you said, you know because, I'm sure that, even though you had a few hundred customers, that probably Barely covered some of your expenses that you had, you know.

Speaker 1: 24:59

Tell me when did you feel that you really gained that traction and how much time did it take Between the time you started working on it on touch stays a startup and between the time you quit your full-time job?

Speaker 2: 25:16

You're right. Those businesses that I did work in those fashion businesses, those names you mentioned were a huge amount of fun and they were extremely challenging for growth potential and for learning. Huge amount of fun. Working with creative people as a finance person is probably just about the most exciting and also the hardest thing you can do, because the creative people show you that energy which so often as a finance team you don't see. But also those creative people are creative people. They bring their challenges. They want to spend money. They've got ideas. You know so. Tools are very challenging. So a fantastic experience and I would say even predating that my experience is even before.

Speaker 2: 25:59

Fashion were foundational for me now in the startup world. So now I can relate to people, I can talk to people, I can understand people. I know finance, I know good cash flow discipline, margin discipline. I understand the creativity that goes into building a product, but also the routine that goes into building a product. Every business, no matter how creative, has a certain number of processes you have to follow to make a product happen. So all of that was foundational, but all of that also was very lucrative. So I was earning a lot of nice money. So that's what I said in those first four years I didn't have to worry too much about touch day, whether it succeeded or not, because it wasn't my food, you know, it wasn't my lifeline. So I I just let it kind of keep going. But I had, I had built I've been half money for me in 2000 and at the end of 2017. So, going into 2018 to say, okay, I'm going to stop now working in fashion and I'm going to pursue touch there because now is the right time. But also I knew at that time in my life that I needed a different challenge.

Speaker 2: 27:01

And I'm also somebody who will always tell people hey, if you're not happy in what you're doing, quit complaining, go and try and do something about it. And there's always so many excuses. But it's not that easy, I'd you know. Blah, blah, blah. Okay, we all make excuses. If you have the guts and the conviction to do something else, then you go do it. And that's what I did. So I held myself to that same bar. So I did that in 2018.

Speaker 2: 27:24

And I and I went for a long time without a salary, like a long time and but, but I was able to do that. That's not a poor me story, it's not. You know it's like I'm not going to pretend or make up this lovely startup story of how I like, just boost up the years and I had the luxury of being able to lean on savings I'd made from my previous career, so it didn't matter that 200 customers were paying you know peanuts relative to the costs. And then guess what happened? We got invited onto the, to the Virgin startup accelerator. So Richard Branson's Virgin they were. They were offering startups to come and join their accelerator program and we applied and we got accepted and we joined that program.

Speaker 2: 28:07

That allowed us to raise a little bit of capital. It also took us through the rigor of whether or not our product was really commercially viable, which was very useful to do, and out of that really spawned the rest of the touch day story. You know we raised enough capital for us to start taking a bit of salary still nothing much it. We raised enough to be able to take on some new people into the team. You know we iteratively built and because of my financial discipline I could think about how we could do that sustainably and build a business. And the nice thing about SAS and the SAS model is provided you don't have a horrible churn, which we don't. There's a compounding effect. So every year you retain most of the business that you sold last year, you bring it into this year and now you add to it. So it's very, very good from the ability to financially plan when you have a low churn business like we do. And yeah, I forgot where your question was. Max, you can tell I like talking. Did I answer it?

Speaker 1: 29:01

No, it's really interesting to listen to your story and I have a question about that startup accelerator how difficult was to be accepted when you applied?

Speaker 2: 29:13

We were one of eight businesses that got accepted onto it and I heard that there were there were tons of applications, and so I mean we got accepted because we had we had to do a like, we had to send in a reason why there was a long, very, very, very full application and because we'd already proved a certain viability of our product and because probably our backgrounds too we looked like you know people who you know maybe were were more positioned to make it a success because we had experience already, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 29:51

Then we had some interview processes and when we met the people and then we eventually got onto it, so it wasn't, it wasn't a difficult process. There wasn't, you know, a lot of. We didn't have to go off site and be grilled by a panel or anything like this. It was. It was a relatively easy process and and yeah, we went on, it was like an eight week, maybe a 10 week program, I think, and the whole point of it was to build towards doing a crowdfund and we quickly realized we didn't want to crowdfund because we're not really a B to C, you know.

Speaker 2: 30:20

so we're not. We had people on our cohort who were selling direct to a consumer and then you can crowdfund. It's an easier connection. So we we didn't, but we did go to the pitch evening. So at the end of the accelerator you go and pitch to a room full of potential investors. There are investors who just like, put a bit of money in this, and bigger ones too, and that was a really good experience to go through, like the training and the rigor that they gave us about how to, you know, do our 10 second pitch and then you know how to then craft a presentation that was interesting and engaging for people and how to position yourself so that it looked attractive from an investor perspective. All of that stuff was really good, good stuff to do. So I was really fortunate. We were really fortunate to get that. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 31:10

So that partially answered my next question, because I was thinking, when getting things off the ground with TouchStay, I'm sure that there were lots of things that you had already professional experience with, but also there are probably even more things that you had no idea about, right Even when we talk about building a new company, technical things and so on. So what practical skills or knowledge you were lacking at the beginning of your journey with TouchStay that you gained as you got into drawing?

Speaker 2: 31:37

I'd never worked in a technology company, I'd have zero development experience, and so that part of the startup journey was completely alien to me. But that's where Joe is a perfect foil. So it's perfect kind of co-founder because, although he doesn't develop, he's very familiar with the more technical side of things. And, again, he hasn't worked in a tech business but he has overseen IT projects and IT transitions and he understands how to manage a team of technical people and the different stakeholders involved in that, both commercially and operationally and technically. So the worry of not having technical experience didn't bother us and in some ways it was good, because I think if I was a developer or if I knew the tech world in a lot of depth, I might kind of put some barriers in my own way. I can't do that because of this. Sometimes it's better that you don't know what you don't know, because you just have the freedom, you go and do it and you make the mistakes, and I think that was helpful.

Speaker 2: 32:44

We also, of course, in the early days had to really struggle with knowing whether or not the development partner that we wanted to use was really good or not, because we had no experience. Somebody could have just been giving some load of BS and we wouldn't really have known it and we worked with the first iteration of the product was a developer in New Mexico, albuquerque, and they built a very decent first product, but the developer, who knew everything about our product, walked out the door one day and they left and we didn't have anyone that could do it. There was no resiliency in the agency we used, so that was a scary time, like transitioning that to somewhere else. So we moved it to a UK agency who introduced us eventually to Echo, echo Global, and Echo's team of developers have been with us since well, I forget the first developer like 2018, maybe, probably, yeah, and that was the transition and so, yeah, the unknown tech landscape and the development environment was kind of scary, and I would say we've made some mistakes along the way too, because there are certain things that even Joe doesn't know because he's never been so close to the development world A lot of architecture staff, a lot of, maybe, best practice for doing certain things which, if we had 10 or 15 years of tech experience, we'd know instantly what the answer was.

Speaker 2: 34:09

We stumbled across some of those other things, but there are lots of other things that we were very good at that. We were very, you know, could eat. That were natural to us, that we had experience of that. Maybe some other startups don't have that experience. So it's a balance, isn't it? With startups, you don't know everything, but you have to be resilient and try and figure it out and find the right people who do which, thankfully, with some missteps along the way, we did eventually do.

Speaker 1: 34:30

That's great. You see, you also answered my another question that I was planning to ask you about how should one?

Speaker 2: 34:36

no, that's great, that's actually amazing.

Speaker 1: 34:38

That means we are on the same page. So my next question was actually how should one approach a building a tech company without having much technical background? And based on what you just said, I think that the best way is to have a partner who is more technical than you right, so you should be strong in one particular area. In your case, it's finance, right and planning and then you have Joe who is more, has more project management experience. He knows more about technologies, tech stacks, framework and all those kind of things. Is that right?

Speaker 2: 35:16

Correct. Yeah, but neither of us knew a developer, neither of us knew a good developer, and that was our first challenge was how to find that. And even the first one we picked was not the one we ended up with. And that's where I think that in an ideal world, with hindsight, we would have spent six months finding the right person and asking our network and we both have big networks and somebody would have said to us don't forget doing that, this is who you should go and use, and so that's natural. That's just a part that you have to accept in the startup world, that there's no precise formula. You have to figure stuff out. But I would say also, where you don't have expertise, it's not a reason not to do something, and I think the lack of expertise you actually said it quite nicely it's the lack of expertise is, in a way, forces you to find the people who do have that expertise, and then you have a better business because it's not all reliant on you. You're finding someone else who can do that with you.

Speaker 1: 36:29

I see. So, andy, I'm not sure whether you are the right person to ask this question. Could you please walk me through the process of how you selected the text stack that you are using for your product? What were the key criteria that guided your decision and, ultimately, what text stack did you settle on for it?

Speaker 2: 36:50

I'd say You're definitely asking the wrong question, max, where we need to call Joe up right now and say Jack, you're asking this question. I'll give you the most basic one, though. When we first started, the most basic decision we had to take was do we build a native app or do we build a web app? And that I understood, because I understood what it meant to go to the app store or the play store and I understood what it meant to go to the website, and we took a lot of time trying to decide that. But you know what? We ended up picking the right path, not because, let's say, by accident, we decided to go for a web app. Why did we go for a web app? Because we thought that developing an app for the app store or the play store would just be a bit more technical and might also require us to take longer to make releases. I have no idea whether that's the case or not anymore, but I think it used to be, and so we decided to go with the web app, and we also had in mind, I'm sure and I could definitely talk myself into this now and say, oh yes, we had the user in mind and we knew it would be much easier for them to go to a web app and all of these great things that we realized today. But that was the first decision.

Speaker 2: 38:02

Once we took that decision to go to a web app, the next decision was who to build it and, frankly, some of the people we asked were just so expensive that we just said no, we can't use them. So eventually we ended up in the area of someone could build a web app who was recommended to us. So one of the more expensive builders I said to him is so expensive and he said what are you trying to build? And I said you can't do it for that cheap money. I said but that's it, that's all we've got. We can't do it for anything more. And he said well, actually I've just come across this new company that started in New Mexico and Albuquerque and they're more of a web agency, but they've got a development arm now and I think it's things about them and that was it. That's what introduced us.

Speaker 2: 38:44

But after that, why did we decide to do it in Python and with Django and View and like all these names to me are just development names? I don't know why View is better than a different front end. I know it's a front end, but I don't know why. That is Joe's area. Definitely. I would say that we relied on experts, though, too. The UK agency we use were quite important for that, and then, of course, echo definitely were very influential in that too, and the Echo team was great, because we didn't have just developers but we also had access to the other people in the development in the Echo team who could guide us through finding the right person with the right skills, and that was really important to us, and I think without that, we would have definitely stumbled for a lot longer with our development challenge.

Speaker 1: 39:36

Great. So can we take a lesson from what you just said and say that whatever area you are, not you don't have enough confidence in you. Just go and find somebody who has more confidence, more experience, and ask them for help.

Speaker 2: 39:51

Yeah for sure. And it doesn't need to be that that person needs to be in your team. That person can just be someone who is in your network, who knows somebody we're not. You know what's the number of degrees of separation from everyone in the world? Like seven degrees or something. I cover what it is. So certainly in your network you could find within a couple of steps some real experts in that field, and I think too many people don't do that. Too many people still think I could figure this out by myself, or you know it's. I would say with hindsight, it's the wrongs, the wrong path. Spend a little bit more time on developing the network, building the network, and then, once you've got that network, it really pays then, because you are those just a couple of degrees of separation away from people that really know the answer. You know like, oh, should I do XYZ in my development? Okay, this person over here who's in my network just tells me the answer in five minutes, and then I've saved myself a whole bunch of pain.

Speaker 1: 40:44

That's right. So there is. There is another. Well, actually we have already touched a little bit on idea validation, but I would like to talk a little bit more about that. So, given that you have all that experience, that you have experience of successes, maybe, maybe some failures as well, overcoming challenges, you must have already developed some kind of framework for validating new ideas. I understand that you know it is a very extensive and complex topic, but if you had to start all over again with a brand new idea for SAS product, or maybe when you have some idea for a new feature, what would be your first steps to validate the idea? How do you decide whether the opportunity cost is worth a shot?

Speaker 2: 41:30

We probably have a different perspective and a unique position versus somebody who's just starting. I think the answer to the question would be different depending on the stage you're at.

Speaker 2: 41:39

Where we are. We have, you know, quite a nice user base now, and so one of the things we did do last year was to ask that user base. You know, here's a list of things that we think are important to develop. Next, what do you think Like? Go and vote on them. And the user base gave us a load of votes and then we prioritized some of those things to develop those things. And then, of course, there are other product features that we already know are definitely going to benefit, because we've been on customer calls and we've heard some of their pains and we've seen that competitors are not doing that. So there's a commercial opportunity too, and those we wouldn't necessarily ask our audience to validate. We just know that they would like them.

Speaker 2: 42:23

Whereas if I was just starting out with a brand new product with no user base and I wanted to understand how to validate my idea, I don't think there's a perfect answer. I think it comes down a little bit to conviction. You know, had I had, I so imagine, when I first started this and my validation was to ask all of those people who told me I was drunk and that it was a stupid idea and I would have never, I would never have done it, you know. So there's also like there has to be some conviction, some gut feel to know that. You know. There's has to be like a I don't want to call it visionary, that's very grand, but you can see it. You can see a potential in a product that other people can't see it. And it doesn't mean that you know how to do it and to develop it. You need to have other people to help you see that, that bring that idea into fruition and into light. But I think in early stages you do, I mean, but possibly you need to be, you need to have a little bit more objectivity.

Speaker 2: 43:16

I may be simplifying it, so I did already. I did already know the industry because I'd stayed as a guest, and that's fundamental to our product is we have to experience it, we have to know what the product use cases. I knew that, I already knew that and my many experiences showed me that. And then I mentioned earlier about the industry professionalizing. So we also knew that there was a degree of learning that the industry had towards this kind of product, and so it's not purely just what's in my gut, let's go do it. You know that's, that's also nonsense, but there has to be that that carries you through, together with those other things that you either know through having experienced a gap in the market, or, if you're lucky enough, perhaps you've, you've, you've, you've already, you know got a whole bunch of testing. That's been done and you know. But that's not the case for many startups. You're starting with someone brand new.

Speaker 1: 44:12

Exactly so. When you said that you must have conviction and God feeling, what I hear is biased opinion, to be honest, because when you really like something, you don't want to hear what you don't want to hear, you know. You only want to hear those opinion of other people that would confirm idea that you're passionate about. And when you said that you must have some fundamental experience in that area, I think that is very important to have because if you are jumping in some niche or area where you know it seems pretty to you but you have zero experience, I think that might be very frustrating over time.

Speaker 2: 44:51

Yeah, yeah. I mean you're right to check me on this point, because we've got like an hour in the podcast and really this is.

Speaker 2: 45:01

This is the kind of thing that we could talk a lot more about, because it is really important. You know, the gut conviction is important. Like you need to. You need, as a, as a, as a leader and a founder, to know that what you're doing has the potential to work. Otherwise, like well, it's just never going to work.

Speaker 2: 45:17

So that has to come first.

Speaker 2: 45:18

Like you have to really have that desire and that energy, but you also really have to have the wisdom and I have a lot of great hearing and, but I wasn't always this great, and so I did start, not necessarily with a lot of wisdom, but the wisdom that I have now has has clearly shown me that the courage and the conviction and the gut feeling, without Also some knowledge of the market, without some knowledge of how you're going to price it, without some knowledge of how you're going to position it, without all these other things, you're right, you are walking into failure if you just blindly go because it's going to work, you're right.

Speaker 2: 46:00

But I do think that that has to come first. Like you do need to have the drive and the ambition, because there are going to be so many times where it's really hard and you feel like giving up, or you face a challenge or someone shouts at you or the website goes down or there's all of these things where you really need to feel that this is worth doing, to have that resiliency to continue going. So it's a real balance, max. But I would love I could talk all day about this, because I think it really is fundamental to understanding what makes a startup succeed. It's not any one of those things, but it does start with energy and conviction and a vision.

Speaker 1: 46:44

Yeah, you see, I actually have so many more questions that I was planning to ask because I deviated from my original plan and I cannot not ask about something that I hear you're talking. So I've asked a lot of questions that I was not planning to and I left aside some of the questions that I was planning to ask. But anyway, because, as you said, we do have a limited time for this podcast Reflecting back to your early days, say 10 years ago, 2014, when everything was just starting, because I remember I checked your I believe it was TouchState's Instagram profile you with the cake with candles. It said the first double digit birthday of TouchState. Right, let's go back to that time, 10 years ago. If someone had predicted that by 2024, you'd be at this point in your journey where you are right now. Would that have matched your expectations? Yeah, let's just put it like would that have matched your expectations?

Speaker 2: 47:52

Yes, yeah, hands down. When you first start a business, you imagine that it could be successful. You could, at a most basic level, that you could pay yourself a salary. That's the most basic thing, but you don't know whether you're going to succeed on that journey. And then the next step is can I pay myself a salary and can I make my life easier and a more scalable product by then having other people in the team who I pay myself a salary? And then, after all of that, is there still some profit in the business after you've done all that? That allows you to take a decision to reinvest it into further growth or to start thinking about taking cash out of the business. And these are things that you only dream about having the luxury of having to decide in the years. So, absolutely back then, for me the barometer was can I pay myself and Joe, can we together have a business that pays ourselves to exist and to live? That's the basic doing something that is our own, not having another boss and not having to travel into London every day.

Speaker 2: 49:11

We were remote work from the start. It's not a new thing for us. So all of those things are big ticks in the boxes, but there were never things that I imagined that would definitively happen. We just didn't know. So we just went year to year to year to year and now sitting here today and, if I looked back to where we started, it's been a long journey to get here, because 10 years is a long time, but don't forget, we had more or less five or six of those years where we were doing our corporate job. So I am really really proud and really happy of what we've built, and it definitely ticks where I would have expected it, more than what I expected it to be. And the question is now what else could it become? And that's what keeps you going, that's the fuel for continuing to build.

Speaker 1: 50:02

Exactly. I'm really glad to hear that you are fulfilled with what you have now, and I'm sure that you're very motivated to keep growing. And so, looking at the current landscape, what are some of the most ambitious goals that TouchStay is aiming to achieve in the near future?

Speaker 2: 50:18

Well, we touched on it earlier, taking the product into a completely different set of verticals, and it's interesting because now I talk to people about that and they go. That's a terrible idea.

Speaker 1: 50:30

It's almost like it was, you know.

Speaker 2: 50:33

But this comes back now to a little bit about okay, let's break it down, which parts of this are risky? Which parts of this are not risky? The product not risky because it works in any vertical. The marketing probably risky. What type of marketing? You break it down and you think a bit more methodically about it and you can address each of those risks.

Speaker 2: 50:51

So we have a team now who have very, very, very smart brains and where I maybe can't see something, someone else on the team can see something and we find a solution to wear around it. And also there's a very tactical, strategic way you approach this. You don't just suddenly go boom, that's what we're going to do. You know, you build into it. There's a lot of nuance that goes into this. So I would say that's the next big opportunity for us and, yeah, I'm excited to see where it goes. And I also want to say, max, that I also don't want anybody listening to think that this was just like the dream story.

Speaker 2: 51:27

It just all happened and it was all beautiful, and no, like it was very stressful. You know, when you quit your job and eventually the money does run out, okay, like I didn't have millions of wealth that I'd accumulated. At a certain point you start running into like real, can I pay my mortgage? You know all this kind of stuff and it's stressful when it's your business. And then you look and you look outside in the market and you're wondering what's going to happen in the market. You know what macro factors, other companies you know and it that it's like it's not easy, like it's not. This has been a really, really, really hard but a very rewarding and a very satisfying journey. But but you know let's be eyes open that it's not.

Speaker 1: 52:08

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe it would have sounded like a dream story if you started this six months ago, you know, and now you are where you are, but it's been 10 years of ups and downs, different kind of challenges that you overcome, so of course I don't think that your your story sounds pretty interesting, but definitely not something that is that seems to be very easy, you know, to do. Okay, so for our listeners who maybe own some rental properties and are interested in trying touch stays product, what's the simplest way or the best way for them to start using your product or try?

Speaker 2: 52:51

touch daycom. Click the free trial button, have two weeks free trial. Poke around, see what's there. We have a really extensive set of help articles, videos, this kind of thing. The product is super simple. Like I said, I think, earlier in the call, if you can use a word doc, that's what touch day is. You just have different sections where you have a text editor. You write the stuff, add videos, add photos, whatever you need, save, move on to the next one.

Speaker 2: 53:18

It's not really that difficult and the two week free trial is definitely enough time for you to see whether or not it's something that you can do. Because that's the first challenge Can I do this? Can I do the software? Is it something that I can do? And then I know a lot of customers who get a real kick out of using it because it's satisfying. Like, when you can do something like this, it's. You think it's difficult and then you realize it's really easy and then at the end you have your own thing, you have your own guide, it's yours and so, yeah, that's the best way, like that two week free trial.

Speaker 1: 53:49

Great, so just go to touchstaycom and the any final advice. To sum this up, one, two sentences for everyone who's just at the starting line of building their tech companies.

Speaker 2: 54:02

I mean, I think probably my key bit of advice is not to obsess over the details. And the challenge is to that kind of more vision and that conviction and find that energy that you know you can do it, like there's this kind of inner confidence that we all have somewhere. Tap into that and then look for the different solutions to some of the problems you come up against. But it's really that starting point, like you have to have that belief that what you're about to start is going to work, because if you don't have that and you start, you're going to quickly run out of energy and not and life's too short Do you want to waste X number of months, years, when you don't really feel it? No, move on, do something else.

Speaker 1: 54:57

It is. It is short and, yeah, that's a really great advice. Thank you, andy, and I want to thank you again for coming. I know it wasn't easy for you to find time and appreciate you did.

Speaker 2: 55:08

Thank you for having me. I've enjoyed it. It's good time to sit and reflect on things. So thank you.

Speaker 1: 55:14

Thank you. Thank you Awesome, andy. You have a great day and take care you too. Bye. Thanks for listening everyone and if you like this podcast, make sure to follow on whatever platform you're using to get your podcasts. Also, if you could leave a review, that would be highly highly appreciated. Thanks, and I'll see you in the next episodes. Take care.